Mr Mansfield
submits Susan Mayes is the only witness who made a positive identification
at the identification parade. He submits that all the other evidence of what
occurred at identification parades should have been excluded pursuant to S.78
of PACE. This is both because of the nature and quality of the purported identifications
and the inherent dangers arising from delay.
It is the experience
of this Court that when a witness to a crime has failed to make a positive
identification on an identification parade the witness may nevertheless be
called into the witness box to describe the offender and what occurred on
the identification parade. A failure to make a positive identification is
no bar to describing either the event or the offender. As the trial Judge
commented, the lack of authority upon the point arises because it is axiomatic
that such evidence is admissible.
Mr Mansfield
concedes that each witness could quite properly give a description of the
man observed including the clothes he was wearing but he submits that when
a witness fails to make an unqualified positive identification no evidence
can be given other than there has been a non- identification. In particular
no evidence should be given as to why the witness only made a qualified identification
or failed to make an identification since this would encourage the jury to
treat the witness as having made an identification when this is not the case.
While this restriction applies to the Crown when there is not a positive identification
Mr Mansfield concludes a defendant can cross-examine a witness so as to show
the positive identification was mistaken.
As we have already
pointed out, the point raised by Mr Mansfield is of a general nature
and in assessing the correctness of Mr Mansfield's submission we will
assume that Susan Mayes was the only witness who made a positive identification.
In addition, we will assume that what happened was at a "live" identification
parade, (although in this case after the first identification parade at which
he was not identified, this appellant would not agree to stand on an identification
parade) subsequent identifications were based on video pictures of individuals
who had been made up to look like the appellant.
Mr Mansfield
submits there is no place for qualified identifications, in a system manifestly
aware of the dangers of mistaken identification. He says sufficient errors
have been made by those who have not qualified their identification for this
to be the position. Unless there has been a positive identification recorded
as such, he submits, the jury should hear no more than that the witness failed
to make a positive identification.
We have been
referred to the report of the Departmental Committee set up under Lord Devlin
in 1976 to review all aspects of the law and procedure relating to identification
(Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department of the Departmental
Committee on Evidence of Identification in Criminal Cases, H>C. 338 1976).
That Committee
examined the possibility of putting three questions to identifying witnesses;
1. Can
you positively identify anyone on the parade as the person you saw?
2. If
not, does anyone on the parade closely resemble the person you saw?
3. If
not, can you say that the person you saw is not on the parade?
The Committee
rejected the possibility of asking questions two and three. The chief reason
for this being that it might confuse a witness. Whilst the Committee decided
against any further questioning of witnesses it did approve the recording
of the spontaneous observations of witnesses. The forms used by the Parade
Inspector require a note to be kept of witnesses conduct and statements throughout
the parade. The Report highlights the inherent dangers of identification evidence
repeated in R v Turnbull 63 Cr App R 132 and R v Forbes 2001
1 Cr App R 442. Mr Mansfield contends that permitting partial or qualified
identification greatly increases the risks, which accompany positive identifications.
Mr Pownall replies that Mr Mansfield's submission accords neither
with established practice nor with any precedent. There is no reported case
in which this Court has ruled that in the absence of a positive identification,
evidence of the circumstances of identification cannot be admitted.
If evidence
is relevant and admissible and passes the quality test set by S.78 of PACE
it is submitted by Mr Pownall that a Judge should admit it having fully
evaluated the fairness of doing so. Mr Pownall argues that the consequences
of the ruling contended for by Mr Mansfield is that a large number of
witnesses may be 90% sure but without being positive and yet no evidence of
this would be admitted. Secondly, if a denominative feature is obscured and
a witness cannot identify or give a qualified identification e.g. where a
plaster is over a scar no evidence would be admitted. Thirdly, a witness may
say that he is sure at a parade but under cross examination may say he was
95% sure which logically under the regime proposed by Mr Mansfield would
result in the jury being told to disregard that identification evidence in
its totality.
The Crown, it
is submitted, must be allowed to investigate the circumstances in which a
failure to identify has occurred in the light of all the circumstances, including
time and change of appearance. A video parade provides an inferior opportunity
to examine and assess a suspect. This appellant chose not to co-operate with
a conventional parade. Eight people were made up to look like the appellant
and where the appellant has chosen to decline to participate it is argued
that he cannot complain if, subject to a test of fairness, evidence of a qualified
or partial identification is admitted.
CONCLUSIONS
We fully recognise
the dangers involved of wrong convictions occurring in identification cases.
This is the reason for the requirement that in all identification cases clear
Turnbull directions must be given. We also accept that counsel for
the defence is usually faced with a difficult task in challenging an honest
witness who has made a mistaken identity. We also agree that prosecuting counsel
must be cautious and avoid conducting his examination of a witness who has
failed to make a positive identification in a manner which suggests to the
witness that but for this fact or the fact that the witness would have made
a positive identification. An identification which is qualified cannot be
transformed into one which is unqualified by careful questioning. It remains
qualified and the jury should be aware of this. Equally a defendant must not
be convicted on the evidence of a qualified identification alone.
However, there
are at least two situations where a qualified identification may in the appropriate
circumstances be both relevant and probative. First, where although the weight
of the evidence will still be less than a positive identification, it supports
or at least is consistent with other evidence that indicates the defendant
committed the crime with which he is charged. Secondly, the explanation for
a non or qualified identification may help to place the non or qualified identification
in its proper context and so, for example, show that the other evidence given
by the witness may still be correct. Otherwise, a non or qualified identification
could be used to attack the credibility of other evidence given by a witness
when the explanation for this may show that such an attack is unjustified.
In each case
it will be for the Judge to decide whether the evidence is more prejudicial
than relevant and probative bearing in mind the importance of protecting the
position of a defendant against unfairness.
In this case
as we will see part of the case for the prosecution is based on the pattern
of identification evidence, including the build, the complexion and clothing
which the appellant was wearing. Subject to the jury receiving appropriate
warnings, which were given in this case, the general evidence of the witnesses
who saw a man who the prosecution say was the appellant was highly probative.
Certainly, where
a witness makes a spontaneous remark at a parade and it is recorded we are
satisfied that such a remark is admissible in evidence if relevant and probative
subject to the trial Judge's discretion to exclude it pursuant to S.78 of
PACE. In many cases where there is an early and conventional identification
parade and a witness fails to make a positive identification any spontaneous
remark may either lack relevance or probative value or fall to be excluded
under S.78.
However, there
are also circumstances in the absence of a positive identification where it
is fair to permit the prosecution to adduce evidence of a spontaneous observation
by a witness attending upon an identification parade. The same approach applies
to a witness being questioned in court after not making a positive identification.
Mr Justice Henriques
THE IDENTIFICATION
EVIDENCE ISSUE
In this case,
the prosecution relied on the evidence of 9 witnesses who described a man
in or in the vicinity of Gowan Avenue either on the evening of the 25 April
1999 or on the following morning up to the time of the murder. We set out
in an appendix to this judgment a table summarising their evidence. We emphasise
the table provides no substitute for the transcripts of their evidence which
we have read. It does however show the pattern of evidence of the witnesses
on which the prosecution rely.
The video parades
in question were on 14 August 2000 and the 5 October
2000 and were 16 and 18 months after the observation. On 26 May
2000 the appellant indicated he would not attend upon any further conventional
parade. Between the murder and the video parades the appellant had grown a
volume of facial hair. The task of any witness was accordingly greatly increased.
They were not comparing like with like and they were deprived of the opportunity
of observing the height and build of the suspect. It is hardly surprising
that, for example, Miss Normanton could not remember a moustache, nor is it
surprising that Miss Scott found the parade difficult partly because of the
time that had elapsed, partly because each picture was of a man with facial
hair and also she could only see the head and shoulders of each person. Each
witness must be considered separately and with care. This is what we propose
to do.
As we consider
each witness in turn it is useful to have a description of the appellant in
mind. On the day of the murder he was 39 years of age. He was about 5ft 11
tall. He was fairly heavily built. He had dark hair.
Mr Geoffrey
Upfill-Brown in his first witness statement described a person running from
31 Gowan Avenue very shortly after the murder as white, between 30 and 40
years old. He was about 5ft 10 of medium build. He had a mop, very definitely
a mop of thick black straight hair, collar length. It was such a mop it gave
the impression it might have been a wig. He had a round face, which was of
a sallow complexion and he was clean-shaven. He was wearing very dark, tending
towards black, clothing which was baggy, therefore, he could not be sure of
his build.
At trial the
witness described him as 5ft 8 to 6ft tall. By his reckoning about 5ft 10.
Because of his loose clothing he seemed to be fairly thick set. Age was somewhere
between 35 and 40. He had black hair, long almost down to collar length, and
curly. He described it, as a mass of thick black hair and at the time thought
it could have been a wig. It came almost to the back of his collar. He had
no facial hair, was clean-shaven, no glasses and of sallow complexion. His
clothing was loose fitting, the jacket almost to his knees; dark in colour
with, he thought, a tinge of brown in the darkness. The trousers were baggy
and loose fitting and of the same colour as the top. He had black shoes.
Mr Upfill-Brown's
observation was of a man exactly opposite his house. The position could be
seen by the jury on photographs. He saw the man running for about 20 yards
towards Fulham Palace Road and he then stopped and turned around. The man
looked at the witness and then broke into a semi-jog form of running before
going behind a lorry. The witness had an opportunity to look at the man's
face for one or two seconds. He was able to see at least three-quarters of
the man's face. When he was running he was able to see the side of his face.
When asked if he had any reason to recollect what happened he said "I was
expecting to have to remember it because of the way the man was behaving.
I watched him very carefully and made every mental note I could."
On 14 August
2000 Mr Upfill-Brown failed to identify the defendant at a video identification
parade. So far as delay is concerned the witness instantly realised the importance
of the observation. He made a statement on the day of the murder and thereafter
could be expected to appreciate the importance of remembering what he had
observed.
Mr Richard
Hughes lived at number 31 next door to Jill Dando. Between 11.30 and 11.45am
on the morning of the murder he was upstairs and heard a sound like his wife's
car alarm. He heard footsteps approaching for about 5 seconds then a scream,
which he did not consider significant. He heard the gate click then looked
out of an upstairs window and saw a figure walk left towards Fulham Palace
Road and had a side view of his face for a few seconds. In his statement dated
29 April 1999 he described the man as "white in colour, with thick
set broad shoulders, thick black hair, pushed back, collar length, mid to
late 30's, he was not wearing any glasses". In an earlier statement made on
the day of the murder he said the man was wearing a darkish wax/Barbour jacket
and the man immediately reminded him of a comedian he had seen on television
by the name of Bob Mills.
In evidence
he described the man as between 30 and 40 years old above average height.
He said he was 5ft 7 and estimated that the man was taller. The man was of
a thick set build and his hair was dark brown, to the ears and collar. He
described it as a thick dark mop of hair, which, from what he could see, did
not appear to have curls or waves. The face was full and 'jowly'. There was
no facial hair or glasses. The man wore a dark colour Barbour style jacket.
Some five minutes later he heard of the killing. On 26 May 2000
he attended an identification parade but was unable to make a positive identification.
It was conceded
certainly for the purposes of any submission that Mr Hughes and Mr Upfill-Brown
had not only observed the same person but that such person was the gunman.
Indeed Mr Hughes had seen Mr Upfill-Brown come out of his gate just
as he saw the man move off briskly. We can well understand why Mr Mansfield
at trial was anxious to exclude the Bob Mills reference but it having been
excluded we can see no further possible objection to the admissibility of
Mr Hughes's evidence.
There followed
evidence from a group of witnesses, six in number, who had seen a man in the
Gowan Avenue area or close to the deceased's home during the evening before,
and the morning of her death.
Helen Scott
saw a man in the area of the junction of Gowan Avenue and Fulham Palace Road
at about 8pm on Sunday 25 April 1999 (the evening immediately preceding
the murder). He was looking down Gowan Avenue and appeared to be behaving
in a bizarre manner. In her witness statement dated 4 May 1999
she described the man as white though there was a hint of Mediterranean about
the skin but still of olive complexion. He was 35 to 40 and had thick well-groomed
black hair; straight, brushed forwards shorter on the sides, thicker on top,
collar length. The suspect was clean-shaven; his eyebrows were very thick
and dark. His eyes were dark, his face was wide shaped and also round, but
not chubby. He was wearing a three-quarter length coat, 5ft 10 and of medium
build. She believed she would be able to recognise him again. She attended
a video identification on 23 January 2001 and having seen the tape
once asked to see No.s 1, 2 and 8 again, and finally selected No. 8 (not the
appellant who was No. 2). She said she was 80-85% sure. We have seen, as the
jury would have seen, the faces of the persons used for the video identification.
As Mr Mansfield accepted the photographs of the persons shown as No.s
2 and 8 were very similar in appearance.
In evidence
Helen Scott said it was a bright sunny evening when she left home to collect
a pizza. She saw a man standing alone looking up towards Gowan Avenue. As
she walked north, she saw him for probably a couple of minutes. He continued
to look up Gowan Avenue until she was almost level with him. Even though he
crossed the junction he continued looking up Gowan Avenue. She was in the
shop for 15 minutes and he still looked up Gowan Avenue. She described him
as late 30's possibly early 40's. Average height about 5ft 10, average build
and not overweight. He had very dark hair possibly black but fairly short
at the sides. It was slightly longer and thicker on top. It seemed quite well
cut with a slight fringe just above the collar. His eyebrows were quite full
and dark and there was a small gap between the eyebrows. His face was quite
dark and she described him as being "sort of Mediterranean, with a slightly
olive complexion." She noticed a Barbour style three- quarter length waxed
jacket.
Mr Mansfield
submitted at trial that the passage of time made any identification very difficult
and that it was quite wrong for the prosecution to put this evidence of what
occurred at the identification parade before the jury when the witness failed
to make a positive identification. He relied on R v Forbes 2001 1 Cr
App R430 in submitting that evidence should be excluded pursuant to S. 78
of PACE.
It will be noted
that this video identification took place on 23 January 2001 whereas
Mr Hughes and others had attended upon a conventional parade on 26
May 2000. It took time to make a compilation video, which was shown
to groups of potential witnesses on 14 August, 5 October
and 11 December 2000, and 23 January 2001.
However, we
note that the witness made a statement nine days after the event and that
the importance of accurately recollecting her observations must have been
obvious to her from the moment she heard of Jill Dando's death. In any event,
she had very good reason to remember the man continuously looking up Gowan
Avenue for two minutes and still doing the same fifteen minutes later. When
cross-examined she agreed that she had heard reports that a dark haired man
had been seen before she made her statement and she had seen an E-fit after
she had made her statement. This E-fit had been produced by a member of the
public called Sappleton, who became suspicious about a man he had seen sweating
at a bus stop in the Fulham Palace Road shortly after the killing. The description
given of this man by Sappleton made it quite clear that he was not the man
seen by Messrs Upfill-Brown and Hughes and it certainly was not the Crown's
case that the E-fit was of the killer. Accordingly, it is difficult to see
how the appellant could have been unfairly or adversely affected by the witness
seeing the Sappleton E-fit. She had also seen posters with the E-fit and three
more faces on posters before she made her statement. She said she found the
video identification parade difficult, partly because of the time that had
elapsed, partly because each picture was of a man with facial hair, and also
that she could only see the head and shoulders of each person. The Judge gave
a very strong Turnbull direction pointing out in the clearest terms
that she failed to identify the defendant at the video parade adding "in fact
she identified another person. For this reason, I direct you that it would
be extremely dangerous for you to rely on the evidence of what happened at
the video parade in relation to this witness as in any way supporting the
Crown's case. The fact is she did not identify the Defendant."
We can see no
basis for an exclusion of Helen Scott's evidence or of her recorded replies
during the identification process. Her observations were in close proximity
to the man she saw. She saw him first for a couple of minutes and then 15
minutes later and she had a good reason to memorise his description. She gave
an explanation for identifying a volunteer, which was for the jury to consider.
Susan Mayes
is the witness whose evidence Mr Mansfield did not invite the Judge to
exclude. There was not any possible basis for doing so. She lived in Gowan
Avenue and left for work at precisely 6.57am daily. On the morning of the
murder she saw a maroon car double-parked outside 28 Gowan Avenue, almost
directly opposite number 29. The car could have been parked legitimately had
the driver so chosen. She saw a man standing on the north side of Gowan Avenue
just looking at the houses on the left. He then looked at the houses on the
opposite side of the road and Susan Mayes had him in her view for about one
minute. She was wondering what he was doing as he could have parked next to
the pavement. She believed he was responsible for the car either as a chauffeur
or more probably a mini cab driver. When she drew level with him he looked
at the ground and he then started to clean the windscreen with his hand with
his left arm against his face. He had stopped when she turned and looked back.
Her description of the man was: age late 30's, height about 5ft 9 tall, stocky
and slightly overweight; he looked Mediterranean and had olive skin; hair
black in quite long layers with the longest bits over his collar; a heavy
style. He was wearing a black suit with a white open-necked shirt, not smart
and as she got closer he looked scruffy. In cross-examination she agreed that
when seen by the police on 27 April 1999 the police record showed
that she described his hair as "with a short and smart haircut." She did not
know if those were her words or a police interpretation. She also agreed that
her statement had referred to hair swept back very straight and layered. She
attended a video identification parade on 5 October 2000, 18 months
after the murder. She picked out No. 2 (the appellant) having asked to look
at No.s 1 and 2 again and said she was very sure of that identification. She
agreed she used shops in the locality but did not think she had seen the man
before. When it was suggested to her that she had made a mistake in her identification,
she said she was not mistaken. The car, a saloon was not an estate and not
old. It was between her and the man and obliterated quite a lot of him. She
had looked closely at him but did not stare. She agreed she might have been
wrong in denying she had seen E-fits on the television before the parade.
It was his hair that made her think he was Mediterranean. Re-examined she
said he appeared 'thuggish' and had looked at his face three times for 5-6
seconds in total. He appeared nervous and it was obvious he did not want to
be seen. There was an agreed admission that the police had failed to trace
any maroon car and that the appellant had no car.
The prosecution
submitted that Miss Mayes's identification was unassailable. She had a close
view of the man. Her evidence was clear and compelling and her description
tallies with others that know him. The defence contended she was mistaken.
No maroon car has ever been traced and a witness, Miss Waldock, who was in
Gowan Avenue at 7.15am saw no car double-parked. There being no argument on
the admissibility of Miss Mayes's evidence, we will return to it when
reviewing the more general submission as to lack of evidence.
Lord
Chief Justice
We turn now
to the evidence of Stella de Rosnay and her daughter-in-law, Charlotte de
Rosnay. Stella saw a man as she looked out of her bedroom window at 55 Gowan
Avenue at about 9.30am on the morning of the murder. He walked towards her
and she had an unobstructed view of him for about 10 to 12 seconds. She commented
because he looked like her son (married to Charlotte). Her description was
aged 35-40, height 5ft 10 to 6ft. Heavy build or strong build. Hair dark brown
normal cut neither short nor long. Face strong and round – no particular feature.
Skin high coloured pinkish and English. She did not think he looked Mediterranean.
Wearing a suit – medium grey but she could not remember the colour of his
shirt or tie. She attended the video identification parade on 5 October
2000 even though she said in her statement she had not considered that she
would be able to recognise the person. She was surprised when she found she
did recognise someone. She had asked to look at No.s 2 and 8 again having
said, "for me for the moment it would be No. 2 or No. 8". She went on to say
she could not tell between No.s 2 and 8 but her gut feeling was No. 2. It
was frustrating. It was the colour of his skin. Having looked at No. 8, she
was recorded as saying, "I would say No. 2." She could not make a positive
identification.
It is submitted
that the Judge should have excluded this evidence pursuant to S. 78 because
the witness said in a witness statement on the day of the parade that she
was unable to pick anybody out and at the parade itself she said "I can't
make a positive statement." It is important, however, that she made a further
witness statement on 6 October 2000 in which she said "I watched
the video twice and immediately ruled out seven of the males. When I saw No.
2 on the screen, it suddenly brought something back to me. I recognised his
face from that of the man I'd seen passing by my window on 26 April
1999, mentioned in my previous statement. The male numbered 8 on the video
also brought back some form of recognition, although not as strongly as No. 2.
The man I saw on 26 April was between 5ft 10 and 6ft. If I had
been able to see No. 2 standing and the opportunity to see his build then
I would be able to eliminate him. However, with the video footage of just
his face I was deprived of the opportunity to do this."
A further objection
to the admissibility of this evidence was that both the de Rosneys had been
transported home in the same vehicle after the parade together with Susan
Mayes and in the course of that journey they had discussed the parade and
learned that Miss Mayes had identified No. 2. It is convenient to deal
with Charlotte at this stage since arguments of admissibility relating to
these two witnesses necessarily overlapped. Charlotte de Rosnay lived at 55
Gowan Avenue. At about 9.40am she was with her mother-in-law, Stella, when
she looked out of her bedroom window and saw a man crossing the road jogging.
She saw him for about 5 seconds. She paid attention because he was similar
to her husband - 33 to 37 years old, 5ft 10 to 6ft in height, stocky, not
overweight but quite solid, dark brown hair quite long and quite wavy. His
hair was blowing about and had a lot of movement. His face was quite square
with no facial hair other than a sort of 5 o'clock shadow. She described him
as having a sort of 'Desperate Dan' appearance. His skin was pale in tone.
So far as clothing was concerned he had a suit of navy blue and a lighter
blue shirt and dark shoes and she believed that she would have noticed if
he was not wearing a tie. One arm was concealed, as if in his pocket, and
overall his appearance was smart, not as smart as a City man more an estate
agent. In cross-examination she said he did not have olive skin and was not
of Mediterranean appearance. She had made a statement on 30 September
1999 and did not mention the man jogging. She thought the police were only
interested in what happened when she was outside her house.
She described
attending the video identification parade on 5 October 2000 and
said height and build was very important. She was not expecting a moustache
and beard. These factors had a large effect on her ability to make an identification.
During the parade she said, "I'd like to see No.2 again and there was a another
half way through" – that was in fact No. 8. After viewing these two again,
No.s 2 and 8, she was asked if the person she had seen on 26 April
1999 was on the parade and she said, "No I don't think so".
Complaint was
also made on the voir dire of the fact that Charlotte de Rosnay had an affair
with one of the officers in the case and that evidence was excluded at trial.
The Judge ruled the evidence of both women admissible. The complaints made
were capable of evaluation by the jury and went to weight. In seeking to exclude
the evidence of the de Rosnays, Mr Mansfield relied on a breach of Code
D: 16 to PACE submitting that it would be unfair to admit the evidence in
the light of such a breach. Code D: 16 relates to conventional identification
parades and requires the police to inform the suspect and his solicitor, if
present, if a post parade identification occurs. Where it does the police
are required to consider giving the witness a second opportunity to identify
the suspect. In a conventional parade it is, of course, extremely difficult,
on many occasions quite impossible, to reconvene a parade when the volunteers
have left the police station. Under Annex B there is no similar provision
for the two reasons identified by Mr Pownall in his skeleton. Firstly,
a suspect is not permitted to be present at a video parade and secondly no
difficulty arises in reconvening a video parade. Accordingly, there was no
breach of the Code made out.
Before either
witness had spoken to Susan Mayes each had independently and without prompting
indicated an interest in or preference for No. 2 (the appellant). The most
significant weakness in Charlotte's evidence was that in her statement of
30 April 1999 she stated, "I did not notice anyone in Gowan Avenue" at 9.40
and "again I did not notice anyone" at 10.30.
Charlotte agreed
that she had heard that Barry George had been arrested before she took part
in the parade. She agreed that it was in all the newspapers. She agreed that
she now knew that the person at No. 2 was the defendant and that he had been
picked out by Susan Mayes and was also the preferred candidate of Stella.
She said it was difficult to make an identification due to the presence of
facial hair on the people participating in the video parade.
We consider
that the Judge correctly admitted the evidence of Stella and Charlotte de
Rosnay. We recognise the shortcomings of the identification by these witnesses,
but the jury was made aware of the weaknesses in these witnesses' evidence.
The jury was able to assess the effect that the conversation with Susan Mayes
must have had upon them and they could make full allowance for it and the
other shortcomings in their evidence.
Belinda Normanton
lived in Gowan Avenue and left home at 9.50am on the morning of the murder.
When she was near number 29 she saw two women with children (namely the de
Rosnays) but she had also seen a man by a black car using a mobile phone.
He was looking in the same direction as she was walking and he was in her
view for two minutes. She had a clear view of him for one minute. Her description
was: aged 40; height 5ft 8; medium build; black hair, long and slightly wavy
but not down to his shoulders; no facial hair; face not narrow; and black
suit and no tie. She had passed within 6-8 feet of him. She did not tell the
police about this man on two house-to-house visits and did not record it until
a year later in a statement. She said she had a condition which made her slow
to connect thought process and speech. She said that after the incident she
saw an E-fit of the appellant and said she would have identified it as the
man she had seen. The defence contended that this undermined the accuracy
of her evidence. The video parade she attended on 14 August 2000
was recorded and she said "I am sure, I am not quite sure. I cannot remember
a moustache." Afterwards she made a statement that she believed No. 2 might
have been the man referred to in her statement. When cross-examined she said
she was sure she had not made a mistake and the person she saw on the parade
was definitely the man in the street. In re-examination she said that she
was sure that the man at No. 2 was the man she had seen in the street and
she agreed that her initial description had included the fact that the man
could have been Mediterranean or sun-tanned and of medium build. She said
that was her initial impression of him and also one year later.
Complaints about
her evidence were that her first statement was a year after the event. The
identification parade was also a year after the event. There were discrepancies
between her evidence and her witness statement. She could not have had the
man in her view for more than a 'shortish' space of time. She said No. 2 might
have been the man referred to in her statement. She indicated that if the
Stappleton E-fit had been on the parade she would have identified him. She
also said in evidence that she gave a description when the police first visited.
It is clear however that there were two police visits before any description
was given. She was asked to cast her mind back to the parade and to say whether
she had the knowledge at that time to say whether the man she had seen was
on the parade. Again the jury were well able to evaluate her evidence and
we consider that the Judge was perfectly correct to permit them to hear it.
Terry Griffin,
the postman, was delivering letters to the deceased's home at about 10.10am
when he saw a man in the road looking directly at 29 Gowan Avenue. In
his witness statement dated 30 April 1999 he described the man
as of Mediterranean appearance, slight brown skin, black straight collar length
hair, about 5ft 10 to 5ft 11 tall, medium build, wearing a dark top, may be
a jacket of some sort. He was aged between 37 and 38 years old. He attended
the video parade held on 14 August 2000 and when asked if the man
he had seen on 26 April 1999 was on the parade he said, "No". In
a further witness statement dated 14 August 2000 he said "the
man at No. 2 on the identification procedure is the man I saw a few weeks
later in Gowan Avenue who approached me and said he had seen the man who killed
Jill Dando." In a subsequent statement he said that he was not able to say
whether the man he identified was the same man he saw on 26 April
1999. He was not saying it was not him.
In evidence
he said that at about 10.15am to 10.20am, having delivered at number 29, a
man was standing in the road opposite number 17. He said it looked quite strange
and happened very quickly. He gave a description of him, 5ft 10 tall, aged
38 to 40, and black hair just above shoulder length and just below the collar.
It was straight hair. He was of medium to large build and looked Mediterranean
with tanned skin. He was wearing a dark top or jacket. He was unable to recall
what else he was wearing. Six weeks after the incident he was approached in
the street by a man who said he had just seen the man who looked like the
'bloke' who killed Jill Dando in a café on the junction of Wardo and
Munster Avenue and asked what they should do. Mr Griffin did not wish
to get involved and pointed the man in the direction of a phone box. He described
this man as aged 38 to 40, 5ft 10, and medium to stocky build; thin 'tache',
dark black hair and wearing a white shirt and black trousers carrying a brief
case. There is apparently no dispute concerning this meeting six weeks or
so after the murder. It was the appellant who approached Mr Griffin.
The defence of course make the point that here is a witness who was able to
identify No. 2 as the man seen in June and thus he was able to identify the
defendant and yet failed to identify the defendant as the man in Gowan Avenue
on the morning of the murder. Again we can see no arguable basis for excluding
this evidence.
The final identification
witness was Janet Bolton (who was asked to attend an identification parade
but did not do so) who parked her car just into Gowan Avenue at 11.35 to 11.40am
– she put it five minutes earlier in her statement of 30 April
1999 – and being anxious that a traffic warden might catch her on a yellow
line she looked up Gowan Avenue and saw a man she thought might be a warden.
She described the man saying he was about 100 yards away on the other side
of the Sidbury Street junction. He was walking quickly towards Fulham Palace
Road, not running. In her statement, dated 30 April 1999, she described
him as a white male, tall, dark haired and was unable to estimate his age.
His clothing appeared dark with a possible suit jacket undone and a lighter
shirt. In her statement, dated 28 May 1999, she added that he possibly
had a red tie on. In evidence, she said he was 35 to 40 years old, 5ft 10
with dark hair, not long and a dark coat, lighter shirt and possibly a red
tie.
Criticisms of
her evidence made by the defence are that she could not give his age in her
witness statement. She said she had seen the E-fit picture. She thought it
similar to the man she had seen when it was not the defendant depicted. Having
said in a witness statement, she was almost certain that he was the man she
saw in Gowan Avenue on 26 April 1999, she was not asked to
go to an identification parade.
The prosecution
contended that this lady was describing the appellant relying on his own witness
statement in which he asserted that he had been wearing a dark suit and tie
and a black overcoat. She also, like Mr Hughes and Mr Upfill-Brown,
mentioned a three-quarter length coat. Again, we can see no sound basis for
excluding this evidence pursuant to S. 78. The weaknesses in the evidence
were highlighted for the jury and it was for them to assess them.
Mr
Justice Curtis
CONCLUSIONS
We now consider
the overall position in relation to the identification evidence.
We are satisfied
that there was evidence properly admitted and properly left to the jury for
their consideration. It was evidence from which the jury could conclude that
each witness saw the same man and that the man was the appellant, Barry George.
We recognise
that Mr Mansfield has grounds for criticising the evidence given by each
individual identifying witness. Allowance has to be made in favour of the
defendant for the delay, the difficult circumstances of the identification
and the danger created by the publication of the identikit drawing. However,
when the identification evidence is looked at as a whole, it provides compelling
evidence that the appellant had been at the scene of the crime at the relevant
time. An examination of the schedule, set out in the appendix, confirms the
picture of the evidence as a whole. The majority of the witnesses describe
a person of the same age, build and height and general appearance as the appellant.
He is of Mediterranean appearance. There are also the references to a Barbour
and three-quarter length coat. Other witnesses in the case who knew him and
describe him, namely Sophia Wallington, Louise Newall, Susan Bicknell and
Ramesh Paul. They gave descriptions of height, build and hair which were remarkably
consistent except it has to be noted that Ramesh Paul spoke about the appellant's
blonde hair. In addition, there is the fact that Susan Mayes made a positive
identification at the identification parade, Helen Scott, Stella de Rosnay,
and Belinda Normanton also made a partial selection of the appellant at the
identification parade as described in the schedule.
We accept the
Crown's submission that there was an underlying unity of description, a unity
not only in the descriptions but in the circumstances of what each witness
saw the man doing. There was a general consistency in the identification evidence.
The Crown submitted that it was inconceivable that there could have been two
such men of similar appearance behaving in a similar manner in Gowan Avenue
in a period of time so proximate in time to the murder of Miss Dando. This
Court accepts that submission having fully reminded ourselves of the dangers
of mistaken identification and having looked at the other evidence capable
of supporting and inconsistent with the identification. Apart from the 'identifying
witnesses' there was a considerable volume of other circumstantial evidence,
independent of the 'identifying witnesses', which suggests there was no error
made and coincidence is not the explanation for similarity in what the identifying
witnesses stated they saw.
The starting
point is the fact that the appellant lived in the vicinity of the crime and
was admittedly not far away at the time of the crime. Next there was evidence,
the value, if any, of which was hotly disputed, which on one view might establish
a link between the appellant and the crime. The evidence is that which related
to; (A) the murder weapon and the bullet which killed Miss Dando, the
appellant's familiarity with firearms and a small particle of firearm discharge
residue which was recovered from his coat, (B) a fibre which was also recovered
from the victim's clothes which could have come from the appellant's clothing.
Then there was (C) the flawed alibi and the lies which were told by the appellant.
There was also (D) his fascination for celebrities. In more detail the position
is as follows:-
(A) The
Murder Weapon
A cartridge
case was recovered at the scene. It was found to be made by Remington (an
agreed fact). It had been fired only once and, as there were no rifling marks,
it had been fired from a smooth bored handgun. The weapon had also probably
been modified since the ammunition was 9mm short round ammunition and the
only 9mm handguns ["Parabellum and "Short"] which exist are not made with
smooth barrels.
The agreed expert
evidence was that the source of the handgun used in the murder was, either
(i) a deactivated or reactivated 9mm (handgun) or (ii) a converted 9mm handgun,
originally capable of firing blanks only, or (iii) a handgun which had a smooth
barrel originally over 24 inches in length which may or may not have been
shortened.
Among the documents
found in the appellant's possession was a hand-written note by the appellant
of the details of three handguns including a Colt Bruni handgun.
The Prosecution
also discovered a picture of the appellant wearing a gas mask and holding
a handgun, with his finger on the trigger, which was identified at trial as
a Colt Bruni. Later, the appellant said that this photograph was not one of
him and denied it was taken inside his flat when it clearly was. He said the
gun was a replica which had been in David Dobbin's possession. The jury could
properly conclude that the appellant was lying to the police on these matters.
The police also
found amongst military and para-military papers, an advertisement for "deactivated"
weapons showing that they could be purchased. However, they never found any
evidence of tools appropriate to, or instructions on any method of, altering
handguns. The appellant denied, in interview, knowing how to modify guns and
there is no evidence to conflict with this, though this does not mean he could
not have acquired a gun which was already modified.
The Cartridge
also had crimping marks on it. The appellant relied on this since this provided
some support for Mr Mansfield's suggestion that it could have come from
an eastern-bloc country which would support the suggestion that the gunman
was an assassin from that part of the world with a political motive. Finally,
a shoulder holster was found at the appellant's house with the other items
we have mentioned.
While in his
Police interviews the appellant played down his interest in firearms and military
matters. On the day of the murder he struck up a conversation with Miss Moorhouse
about his service in the Territorial Army.
The expert evidence
showed that the deceased had been shot at very close quarters, since there
was a small cut on the left-hand side of her head consistent with contact
with the foresight of the gun. The point of entry was above and behind the
left ear. At that time of her death, which would have been instant, the deceased's
head would have been on or near the step with her killer bending or crouched
over her.
According to
the written opinion of the Pathologist, Dr West, the killer was used to and
experienced in handling handguns. When asked at interview the appellant denied
he had ever owned a gun and said he had no access to them. However, he did
say he had fired guns at a gun-club, a presumed reference to the Kensington
Pistol Club which he last attended on 15 September 1982 and that
he had been in the Territorial Army (in 1981-1983).
The Judge reminded
the jury of an incident which was described by David Dobbins which occurred
in 1985 when the appellant came to the door of his house and discharged a
pistol at the door; he said it was a blank gun and he saw the cartridge ejected.
He identified the pistol as the one held by the appellant in photograph no.
18.
Susan Coombe
gave evidence that the photograph was taken in the appellant's room and said
that earlier in 1985 she had twice seen the appellant with handguns. On the
second occasion, the appellant had shown it to her and then put it under the
bed. She drew a picture of it which was in exhibit before the jury.
(ii)
The Firearm Discharge Residue Evidence ("FDR")
Found in a search,
at the appellant's home on 17 April 2000, was a coat hanging on
the kitchen door which the appellant admitted was his. PC Cain found
it and gave it to DC Isaacs who sealed the coat in an exhibits bag which was
taken to a secure cleaned room at the local police station. Both officers
gave evidence of the precautions taken by each of them individually as to
cleanliness of attire and the system used i.e. of including surgical gloves
to ensure the integrity of the exhibits. On 24 April 2000
the exhibit was transferred to the Amelia Street Police Photographic Studio
and then returned to store. On 2 May 2000 it was taken to the Forensic Science
Laboratory. At each stage a body of police officers gave evidence of the precautions
taken personally and the precautionary system adopted on 17 April
2000. This was likewise at Amelia Street.
No police were
involved in the 17 April 2000 search who had been involved with
firearms, except a PC Sankey who had found some ammunition in November 1999.
In May 2000
Mr Keeley a Senior Forensic Officer specialising in FDR examined the
appellant's overcoat. Mr Keeley also gave evidence of the system at the
Laboratory. A taping from inside the internal right pocket of the coat revealed
a small particle 11.5 microns in size. Two particles, which matched one another,
had been found in the victim's hair near the wound, and on her raincoat. They
were FDR and contained aluminium, lead and barium. Very little residue had
been found since probably because most of it went into the head wound due
to the proximity of the gun to the victim's head. Mr Keeley compared
them with the particle found in the overcoat and they matched.
The expert's
evidence was that, when a gun is fired there is a discharge of 'percussion
primer cap' ("CAP") residue, and propellant residue. CAP residue does not
degrade. There are about five common manufacturers of CAP containing three
basic chemical compounds; barium, lead and antimony to which aluminium is
often added. Remingtons was one of the makers. The micron particle contained
three of the basic chemical compounds in the CAP, as had the cartridge used
to kill the victim.
Tests to exclude
other possible sources for the particle were carried out. As a result Mr Keeley's
opinion was that the particle was not residue from a firework. Secondly, in
his opinion it was not from a blank cartridge as they have a different form
of primer. The Defence expert Dr Lloyd, a Forensic Scientist of 30 years experience
said it possibly was.
Mr Keeley's
opinion was that the fact that only one particle of FDR was found was not
significant - it was a not unusual situation. In Mr Keeley's experience
CAP residue would more often than not be found on the firer of the gun, but
would not be found on ordinary members of the public unless they had been
associated with firearms. His evidence was that the micron particle was consistent
with having come from the cartridge used in the killing. Dr Renshaw, equally
well-qualified, reviewed Mr Keeley's findings and agreed with them.
The jury had
also to consider Dr Lloyd's evidence, who said that the particle was so small
that to rely on it, one year after the killing, was "incredible". Its size
"cast doubts on where it came from"- it could be the result of casual contamination.
However, the main part of his evidence was directed to the places where innocent
contamination of this exhibit could have taken place. Dr Lloyd was of
the view that the police procedures had been flawed and contamination could
have occurred at any stage, even before the events surrounding the victim's
death. However, the possibility of contamination narrowed down on the evidence
to whether PC Cain could be responsible by putting his hand into the pocket
or whether the integrity of the exhibit was compromised by the photographic
session of the coat at Amelia Road.
In considering
the question of contamination it has to be remembered that the appellant admitted
to the police that he may have been wearing this coat on the day of the killing
(26 September 1999) and little residue would be left by the killing
which would be then available to 'contaminate' any body or thing.
A suggestion
that it was possible for the particle to have got into the accused's coat
pocket before the relevant events by the appellant having visited a military
clothing shop on 9 April 1999 was assessed by Mr Keeley as
most unlikely. Dr Lloyd disagreed, in general in terms, he said that
nothing could be ruled out.
The next opportunity
for contamination was when PC Cain found the coat. However, there was abundant
evidence from DC Isaacs, PCs Cain and Williams as to the care being exercised
and it was Mr Keeley's opinion that the only possibility of contamination
which he could envisage would have occurred when PC Cain opened the coat pockets.
He thought contamination from the search was unlikely and the risk of contamination
by an officer bringing in the particle on his special clothing, though in
theoretical terms "possible", was low.
Dr Lloyd
did not agree. The police vehicle used to take the police to the appellant's
flat had not been sampled as was "proper procedure", and the gloves worn should
have been 'forensic' gloves not 'rubber' gloves.
In our judgment,
the jury could safely be left to assess the risk of contamination. The main
thrust of the appellant's case was that the photographic sessions had corrupted
the integrity of the coat, the police procedures were flawed and precautions
should have been taken at the studio to demonstrate no contamination had occurred.
Dr Lloyd dismissed the findings of the February 2001 examination by Mr Keeley
(which showed no particles), at the Amelia Street Studio, as being too late.
In his evidence,
Dr Renshaw identified six events which would have had to have occurred
at the Studio for the particle to have been deposited on the coat from FDR
at the studio. It was his opinion that as the particle was in the inside of
the pocket, that contamination could not have happened unless a hand upon
which the particle was deposited had placed it into the pocket. He regarded
the probability of this occurring as being "low"; Mr Keeley's evidence
was to like effect though he conceded he would not have wanted the photograph
session to have taken place until after his examination.
The prosecution
called substantial evidence designed to show that no contamination could have
occurred during the session but despite this evidence all possibility of contamination
could not be removed. It could only be reduced. It was still, however, evidence
that the jury were entitled to consider in coming to their overall conclusion.
Mr
Justice Henriques
Mr Mansfield,
in his written submissions on this aspect of the case, advanced a total of
five grounds:
In
Ground 1 (iii) and (iv): That the Judge should have acceded
to a submission of no case to answer, in as far as this evidence related to
the identification, and/or was wrong in directing the jury that the FDR residue
was capable of providing "corroboration" or support for the identification.
We are of the
view that there clearly was a case to answer and the Judge's ruling to that
effect was correct. Further, in our view, the Judge was right in leaving to
the jury whether any of the firearm's evidence (or evidence other than identification)
of which they were sure, did in fact support any identification they were
considering.
In Ground
37: That S78 of PACE should have been used by the Judge to exclude
this evidence. The Judge considered S.78 and rightly concluded no judicial
exclusion of the evidence was called for.
In Ground
38: That the firearm's evidence was not a matter for the jury. We
reject this submission: it was entirely for the jury having been properly
directed.
Further Mr Mansfield
suggests that the Judge's direction at pages 16, 34 and 35 was wrong about
the status of this evidence. In our view a fair reading of that direction
accurately reflected the evidential position at the end of the evidence. If
it was as a result of further thought by the Judge as is suggested this does
not matter.
In Grounds
40 and 41 it is submitted (a) that there is an evidential rule
that there is a distinction between primary and secondary facts (b) the existence
or non-existence provenance of a primary fact is a matter for the Court to
determine as a condition precedent to the admissibility of "certain types
of evidence" – (which includes FDR evidence). In our view, there is no such
rule. The safeguards against irrelevant material entering the arena are in
place under S.78 PACE and the trial Judge's common law powers.
(B) The
Fibre
A fibre was
found on the deceased's raincoat. It was a common one that could have come
from the appellant's trousers. If in fact it came from the deceased's raincoat
that would provide strong evidence linking the appellant with the crime. However,
the Forensic Expert had managed to carry out three of the four tests but not
the fourth - viz extracting the dye from it, because the fibre was too short.
In addition, the defence expert, Mr Webster, considered the finding insignificant.
This is not more than weak support for any connection to the "raincoat" fibre
but it is still a minor part of the whole picture.
(C) The
Flawed Alibi And Lies
The appellant
provided a signed alibi statement dated 10 January 2001 in support of the
alibi to which we referred in paragraph 12 above. In it he said he had been
at his home until he had attended the offices of HAFAD in Greswell Street.
He said he had no recollection of the precise time he left home. He believed
it must have been sometime in the late morning –10.30-10.45am. He gave the
route and he indicates that the journey would have taken about half an hour.
He stated that he stayed at the offices until he left at approximately 1pm.
Thereafter, he went to the offices of Traffic Cars at approximately 1.15pm.
The Crown submitted
that the appellant visited HAFAD after committing the murder. The Defence
case was that he was at HAFAD at the time of the murder. The Crown submitted
he must have arrived at around 12.45pm at the earliest. He stayed for 10-15
minutes and arrived at the offices of the taxi firm at 1.15pm which was only
a few minutes away. Four witnesses at HAFAD indicated he only stayed a short
time because he had made no appointment though there was confusion as to his
time of arrival. However, the evidence from CCTV stills and as to a telephone
call made by the appellant on his mobile phone supported the case for the
Crown. It was also established that the telephone call could not, as the appellant
suggested, have been made from HAFAD. The route the appellant states he took
to Greswell Street was also a surprising one and, as the Crown argued, designed
to avoid his being in Gowan Avenue. The evidence relied on by the Crown effectively
destroyed the appellant's alibi. It also demonstrated that the appellant's
police interview contained lies.
Two days later,
the appellant returned to the premises of HAFAD. It was left to the jury that
there was no sensible purpose for the second visit, other than to ensure that
there would be support for his wearing different clothes from those which
were seen by the witnesses at Gowan Avenue.
The appellant
stated that he visited HAFAD on 28 April 1999 because he was concerned
that his friends said he bore a striking resemblance to a published E-fit.
In fact the E-fit was not published until 30 May 1999.
LINKS
WITH GOWAN AVENUE
The appellant
claimed, in interview, not to know where Gowan Avenue was. When asked to describe
his route from home to HAFAD, on the day of the murder, he described a circuitous
route, considerably longer than a direct route, which would have taken him
along Gowan Avenue.
He had a card
in his flat from a doctor's surgery in Gowan Avenue. He had a photograph of
a woman walking past the same surgery, the photograph being in his flat. He
told a friend that he had a special friend who lived in Gowan Avenue and it
was a lady-friend.
The Crown's
case was that the false alibi and the other lies which he told were evidence
of the appellant's guilt. The Judge correctly directed the jury as to the
significance of lies and what weight they should attach to lies and that it
was a matter for them.
(D) Fascination
With Celebrities
A volume of
material was recovered from the appellants flat including newspapers with
photographs of the deceased going back to 1990. The appellant had claimed
at interview that he had not heard of Jill Dando.
There were four
copies of the magazine 'Aerial' (BBC internal magazine dated 27/4/99) with
a full-page photograph of the deceased on the cover and inside the story of
the murder. The appellant had in his flat several pictures of celebrity female
newscasters, some taken by him, from the television.
The appellant
told the postman he had seen the killer. He made statements that he looked
like the killer and took a considerable interest in the aftermath of the killing.
Fascination
With Firearms
Most of the
evidence supporting the Crown's suggestion that the appellant was fascinated
by firearms has been referred to already. The appellant had in his possession
a document setting out the recent legislation in respect of de-activating
firearms. A photograph, taken in the appellants flat, depicted him wearing
a respirator and holding a Bruni pistol. Part of the firearm had been removed
deliberately. A witness, Susan Coombes, gave evidence that she had seen him
with two other firearms. A photograph was found of the appellant wearing a
mask and holding a Kalashnikov rifle. A list of guns in the appellant's handwriting
was found. A copy of a birth certificate was found of a man who had acted
heroically in the Hyde Park, Iranian Embassy siege.
The appellant
had a gunsmith's card in his possession and had various entries in Exchange
& Mart relating to deactivated firearms, private investigators and ID
cards.
CONCLUSION
In its totality,
which we have not set out in this judgment, this supporting evidence was capable
of being powerful support of the identification evidence. The jury could well
have thought it could not have been a coincidence that the person identified
should: live close to the scene of the murder; be in the vicinity of the murder
on the day and at the time in question; be interested in firearms and Jill
Dando; and, when interviewed, have told lies about his movements at the time.
To this has to be added the scientific evidence which involved further coincidences.
THE
SAFETY OF THE CONVICTION
As we indicated
earlier in this judgment, it is not necessary to deal with the correctness
of the numerous decisions, which the Judge had to make during the course of
the trial, on a number of individual applications which were made both before
and during the trial. However, we have read the decisions of the Judge and
it is right that we should record that we consider his decisions cannot be
faulted. There is no challenge to the general fairness with which the trial
was conducted, rulings on Mr Mansfield's applications apart, and in fact
the Judge excluded evidence on the grounds that it would be more prejudicial
than probative which other Judges might have admitted. His summing up was
a model of clarity and balance. He warned the jury against drawing adverse
inferences from the fact that the appellant did not give evidence. He took
the jury, with great care, through the identification evidence. He explained
the dangers about which Mr Mansfield was concerned.
The case, however,
remained a difficult one for a jury, as is confirmed by their majority verdict
and the time which the jury took to reach a verdict. Mr Mansfield contends
that we should have at least a lurking doubt as to the correctness of the
verdict. We were referred to R v Cooper (1969) 1 QB 267 and R v
Pope 85 Cr App. R 201 for this residual role of this Court.
There are cases
where an individual witness's evidence is critical. This is not such a case,
though it is probable that if there had been no positive identification of
the appellant, there would never have been a prosecution. The important thing
in this case is the evidence as a whole. Looking at the evidence, as a whole,
we have no doubt as to the correctness of the conviction.
THE
JURY ISSUE
After the trial
had finished one juror made an attempt to contact the solicitors acting for
the appellant. She was clearly very upset. We do not know whether she was
the juror who dissented. There are limitations on what can be discussed with
a juror relating to a trial and everyone involved acted with perfect propriety
but nothing was revealed which established that anything had gone wrong with
the trial process.
In addition,
a book relating to the trial was published. This book had passages which Mr Mansfield
submitted indicated that some impropriety had taken place involving deliberations
outside court hours and unauthorised conversations with the jurors prior to
the trial beginning on 30 April 2002, Lord Justice Mantell, Mr Justice
Leveson and myself heard an application as to this matter. A transcript is
available as to what occurred and of the short judgment I gave. The court
did not consider that any directions were called for and no inquiry was ordered.
It was, however, indicated that it would be in order for the police to make
any inquiries they thought were appropriate. The author of the book was then
interviewed and we have his statement. We are also in possession of other
communications of which the parties are aware. Nothing has however been provided
to us which leads us to believe that there has been any irregularity. We do
not believe it is necessary or would be helpful to say anything more on this
subject.